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	<title>Comments on: On God, Gorillas, and the Evolution of Religion</title>
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	<link>http://primatology.net/2007/01/31/on-god-gorillas-and-the-evolution-of-religion/</link>
	<description>We ain’t monkeyin’ around here.</description>
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		<title>By: Terry Rollins</title>
		<link>http://primatology.net/2007/01/31/on-god-gorillas-and-the-evolution-of-religion/#comment-10496</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Terry Rollins]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:13:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://primatology.org/2007/01/31/on-god-gorillas-and-the-evolution-of-religion/#comment-10496</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Apes are very close to us because we can identify with them, They have hands with opposing thumbs. We need more study of them.
I am of the belief that all animals are each very different individuals much like humans are. It&#039;s not just the great apes that posess the ability for emotion.
Our pets, animals that are in close contact with us can sometimes show behavior that can only be described as emotional attachment.
My adopted Mother tells a beautiful true story of a young girl with a terminal illness, who developed a relationship with her dog. After the girls&#039;s death the family went to the cemetary to place flowers on the grave, the dog had never been there, but ran to the girls grave and layed down and started to wimper.
We cannot generalize and say that all apes or all dogs are capable of this type of behavior, however, it touches us in a speical way to witness it when it does happen.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apes are very close to us because we can identify with them, They have hands with opposing thumbs. We need more study of them.<br />
I am of the belief that all animals are each very different individuals much like humans are. It&#8217;s not just the great apes that posess the ability for emotion.<br />
Our pets, animals that are in close contact with us can sometimes show behavior that can only be described as emotional attachment.<br />
My adopted Mother tells a beautiful true story of a young girl with a terminal illness, who developed a relationship with her dog. After the girls&#8217;s death the family went to the cemetary to place flowers on the grave, the dog had never been there, but ran to the girls grave and layed down and started to wimper.<br />
We cannot generalize and say that all apes or all dogs are capable of this type of behavior, however, it touches us in a speical way to witness it when it does happen.</p>
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		<title>By: ReadyForTruth</title>
		<link>http://primatology.net/2007/01/31/on-god-gorillas-and-the-evolution-of-religion/#comment-10399</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ReadyForTruth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 19:06:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://primatology.org/2007/01/31/on-god-gorillas-and-the-evolution-of-religion/#comment-10399</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If ‘Nature programmed with a moral sense,’ then 1) Why can’t we come to an universal agreement about morality itself? 

Because differences, biologically and socially, in individuals change a person to make them act differently, have different views, and that includes any type of perspective that is negative (hence being raised in a unstable violent environment can and does change a person and their views). Thus, morality is defined differently from person to person, however there are universal morals that are, if a person is brought up &quot;psychologically nutured&quot;,  respect a real sense of morality. Therefore, people brought up in good situations DO universally accept specific morals. Which I have found never differ. However, people are raised differently, and some raised more absurdly than others, making different people have different opinions on what is right and wrong. But, a person, coming into enlightenment, can decifer a universal moral code, such as not killing or harming a living creature, do not do to others what you wouldn&#039;t want done to you, etc. There are only a few simple universal moral codes that if all humans abided by we could all live in harmony. It is possible for a universal moral approach, in which nature does have programmed, ready to be attained, but there are too many dumb people in this world to realize it, so instead of acting on their biological &quot;instincts&quot; they act on their social &quot;opinions.&quot;  

I was taught this in a lecture, read up on Criminology and Psychology, it explains the universal moral code that all people SHOULD know but some either ignore it or were raised to the point it would be impossible for them to know any other way.

And 2) Why are there some who are simply not moral in any sense of the idea?

^ As the above, biological mutations, diseases, anything different from a &quot;healthy brain&quot;, etc. and the social environment (social ties, institutions, peers, etc) affect an individual. Some people are raised to not have certain morals. Children, or humans in general are born with certain preobligations, certain biological pathways to take, but as the child grows life steps in and can easily deter someone from the path. It all depends on how you are raised, BUT the biological basis for certain things IS already in your brain.

Example... Humans are built with areas in the brain for language development, areas that change over time to allow certain phases of language development to occur. This phases also are meant for the various ages, usually between birth and 8 years old. However, it is known that just because a human is born with the ability to learn and understand language, does not mean that person will. If that child&#039;s mother never spoke to that child, and never allowed that child to hear voices, that child would NOT develop understanding the concepts of linguistics.

Biology and Sociology go hand in hand, Biology is there first, Sociology affects what the individual does with it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If ‘Nature programmed with a moral sense,’ then 1) Why can’t we come to an universal agreement about morality itself? </p>
<p>Because differences, biologically and socially, in individuals change a person to make them act differently, have different views, and that includes any type of perspective that is negative (hence being raised in a unstable violent environment can and does change a person and their views). Thus, morality is defined differently from person to person, however there are universal morals that are, if a person is brought up &#8220;psychologically nutured&#8221;,  respect a real sense of morality. Therefore, people brought up in good situations DO universally accept specific morals. Which I have found never differ. However, people are raised differently, and some raised more absurdly than others, making different people have different opinions on what is right and wrong. But, a person, coming into enlightenment, can decifer a universal moral code, such as not killing or harming a living creature, do not do to others what you wouldn&#8217;t want done to you, etc. There are only a few simple universal moral codes that if all humans abided by we could all live in harmony. It is possible for a universal moral approach, in which nature does have programmed, ready to be attained, but there are too many dumb people in this world to realize it, so instead of acting on their biological &#8220;instincts&#8221; they act on their social &#8220;opinions.&#8221;  </p>
<p>I was taught this in a lecture, read up on Criminology and Psychology, it explains the universal moral code that all people SHOULD know but some either ignore it or were raised to the point it would be impossible for them to know any other way.</p>
<p>And 2) Why are there some who are simply not moral in any sense of the idea?</p>
<p>^ As the above, biological mutations, diseases, anything different from a &#8220;healthy brain&#8221;, etc. and the social environment (social ties, institutions, peers, etc) affect an individual. Some people are raised to not have certain morals. Children, or humans in general are born with certain preobligations, certain biological pathways to take, but as the child grows life steps in and can easily deter someone from the path. It all depends on how you are raised, BUT the biological basis for certain things IS already in your brain.</p>
<p>Example&#8230; Humans are built with areas in the brain for language development, areas that change over time to allow certain phases of language development to occur. This phases also are meant for the various ages, usually between birth and 8 years old. However, it is known that just because a human is born with the ability to learn and understand language, does not mean that person will. If that child&#8217;s mother never spoke to that child, and never allowed that child to hear voices, that child would NOT develop understanding the concepts of linguistics.</p>
<p>Biology and Sociology go hand in hand, Biology is there first, Sociology affects what the individual does with it.</p>
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		<title>By: A Review of the &#8220;What does it mean to be human?&#8221; panel at the 2008 World Science Festival &#171; Anthropology.net</title>
		<link>http://primatology.net/2007/01/31/on-god-gorillas-and-the-evolution-of-religion/#comment-9180</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[A Review of the &#8220;What does it mean to be human?&#8221; panel at the 2008 World Science Festival &#171; Anthropology.net]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jun 2008 22:35:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://primatology.org/2007/01/31/on-god-gorillas-and-the-evolution-of-religion/#comment-9180</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] I find that there&#8217;s only one anthropologist on the panel, Ian Tattersall, extremely ironic considering they are asking a very anthropological question. Tattersall says our extraordinary form of symbolic cognition is unique. I can&#8217;t say definitively that he&#8217;s wrong in stating that, but chimpanzees from Gombe have been documented to show some reverence for nature, which is a very symbolic behavior. Read more from Barbara King. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I find that there&#8217;s only one anthropologist on the panel, Ian Tattersall, extremely ironic considering they are asking a very anthropological question. Tattersall says our extraordinary form of symbolic cognition is unique. I can&#8217;t say definitively that he&#8217;s wrong in stating that, but chimpanzees from Gombe have been documented to show some reverence for nature, which is a very symbolic behavior. Read more from Barbara King. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: On primate behavior and tracing back the origins of morality &#171; Primatology.org</title>
		<link>http://primatology.net/2007/01/31/on-god-gorillas-and-the-evolution-of-religion/#comment-1449</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[On primate behavior and tracing back the origins of morality &#171; Primatology.org]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Mar 2007 05:01:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://primatology.org/2007/01/31/on-god-gorillas-and-the-evolution-of-religion/#comment-1449</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] I also noticed Nick opens talk about the origins and concept of religion, something I talked about here. But aside from the intricate subtopics, at the very minimum this article provides us with some [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I also noticed Nick opens talk about the origins and concept of religion, something I talked about here. But aside from the intricate subtopics, at the very minimum this article provides us with some [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Barbara J. King&#8217;s &#8220;Evolving God&#8221; as a movie &#171; Primatology.org</title>
		<link>http://primatology.net/2007/01/31/on-god-gorillas-and-the-evolution-of-religion/#comment-1224</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Barbara J. King&#8217;s &#8220;Evolving God&#8221; as a movie &#171; Primatology.org]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2007 05:07:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://primatology.org/2007/01/31/on-god-gorillas-and-the-evolution-of-religion/#comment-1224</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] God&#8221; as a&#160;movie  Jump to Comments I can&#8217;t believe it was in January when I shared the book on the evolution of religion by Barbara King. Time flies, and I&#8217;ll be another quarter closer to my [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] God&#8221; as a&nbsp;movie  Jump to Comments I can&#8217;t believe it was in January when I shared the book on the evolution of religion by Barbara King. Time flies, and I&#8217;ll be another quarter closer to my [...]</p>
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		<title>By: MBC Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Asetekniikkaa kädellisille</title>
		<link>http://primatology.net/2007/01/31/on-god-gorillas-and-the-evolution-of-religion/#comment-753</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MBC Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Asetekniikkaa kädellisille]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:33:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://primatology.org/2007/01/31/on-god-gorillas-and-the-evolution-of-religion/#comment-753</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] on uskonnollisia [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] on uskonnollisia [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Carlon Robbins</title>
		<link>http://primatology.net/2007/01/31/on-god-gorillas-and-the-evolution-of-religion/#comment-691</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Carlon Robbins]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:45:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://primatology.org/2007/01/31/on-god-gorillas-and-the-evolution-of-religion/#comment-691</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[P.S.
Is violating &quot;Occam&#039;s Razor&quot; anything like violating &quot;Yahveh&#039;s Mitzvot?&quot;

P.P.S
Occam was a Franciscan friar!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.S.<br />
Is violating &#8220;Occam&#8217;s Razor&#8221; anything like violating &#8220;Yahveh&#8217;s Mitzvot?&#8221;</p>
<p>P.P.S<br />
Occam was a Franciscan friar!</p>
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		<title>By: Carlon Robbins</title>
		<link>http://primatology.net/2007/01/31/on-god-gorillas-and-the-evolution-of-religion/#comment-689</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Carlon Robbins]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:28:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://primatology.org/2007/01/31/on-god-gorillas-and-the-evolution-of-religion/#comment-689</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[With all respect to you skeptic griggsy, and everyone else, I believe that you, as many others in the contemporary world have been intellectually compromised by the considerably unfortunate historical circumstances which have determined our inheritance of a “personal,” theistic, omnipotent, omni-benevolent, omniscient, omnipresent, and, a however ironically and hypocritically, wrathful godhead conception. 

The Western religious tradition encompassing Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam does not represent the World on spiritual, cosmological, theological or moral interpretations. These are just a few very similar traditions, all drawing a line of descent from Zoroastrianism, which have evolved in their own times and places the dominant concept of “god,” (to use comedian George Carlin’s words), as “a really tall man in the sky who’s going to punish you if you do something ‘wrong.’” This of course is such obvious “horse fodder” that it’s extremely nuts to postulate. 

But that’s just one side of a multilayered existentially based phenomenon that some, but not all, nominally refer to as “god,” which in-and-of-itself is a non-sequitur. No one other than the talking heads of the above mentioned traditions (especially extremist, fundamentalist, Protestant Christians in American) hold or claim to hold deity-concepts such as this. 

“Morality” and practically all other concepts are just as much non-sequiturs as “god.” These are all words, interpretations, concepts, ideas, symbols, projections, etc. But, it is what they refer to that is important. (Keep in mind that to say “Nature, not God, programmed us with a moral sense” IS JUST AS ABSURD IF NOT MORE SO, than any theological concept); and if you’re thinking to yourself, “Hey, this guy’s just arguing Semantics,” I say “Hell yes!” 

“Natural Selection” – how does Nature “select?” – This is a case of personifying Nature… which you might argue is the exact thing that most religious peoples are doing. “Natured programmed us…” – how does Nature “program?” –Again we have a personification and anthropomorphizing problem.

To put in terms such as the late, great Joseph Campbell might use, those spiritual and/or religious traditions or paths of the ancient “primitive” world, tribal societies, as well as the great religious traditions of the East have “god-concepts” which are more “Elemental, representing the POWERS WITHIN NATURE.” In these cases the “god” is a manifestation of the “energy” and “mystery” of Nature rather than being the generator of cosmic energy or the “architect” of the universe. 

This concept works extremely well with the knowledge coming forward from the scientific communities. 

In the end, it might very well sound like Pantheism, but that may in fact ultimately, in turn justify statements such as, “Natural Selection,” and “Nature programmed us with a moral sense.” 

And you might ponder one of the questions I pose to my students of mythology; “If ‘god’ was the only thing which existed prior to the ‘creation’ of the universe, then what did ‘god’ create the universe out of?”

My final note, now that I have all of this out of the way, is that there’s yet another problem with the statement, “Nature programmed us with a moral sense,” which I’d prefer to write on at a later time. But until then; “If ‘Nature programmed with a moral sense,’ then 1) Why can’t we come to an universal agreement about morality itself? And 2) Why are there some who are simply not moral in any sense of the idea?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With all respect to you skeptic griggsy, and everyone else, I believe that you, as many others in the contemporary world have been intellectually compromised by the considerably unfortunate historical circumstances which have determined our inheritance of a “personal,” theistic, omnipotent, omni-benevolent, omniscient, omnipresent, and, a however ironically and hypocritically, wrathful godhead conception. </p>
<p>The Western religious tradition encompassing Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam does not represent the World on spiritual, cosmological, theological or moral interpretations. These are just a few very similar traditions, all drawing a line of descent from Zoroastrianism, which have evolved in their own times and places the dominant concept of “god,” (to use comedian George Carlin’s words), as “a really tall man in the sky who’s going to punish you if you do something ‘wrong.’” This of course is such obvious “horse fodder” that it’s extremely nuts to postulate. </p>
<p>But that’s just one side of a multilayered existentially based phenomenon that some, but not all, nominally refer to as “god,” which in-and-of-itself is a non-sequitur. No one other than the talking heads of the above mentioned traditions (especially extremist, fundamentalist, Protestant Christians in American) hold or claim to hold deity-concepts such as this. </p>
<p>“Morality” and practically all other concepts are just as much non-sequiturs as “god.” These are all words, interpretations, concepts, ideas, symbols, projections, etc. But, it is what they refer to that is important. (Keep in mind that to say “Nature, not God, programmed us with a moral sense” IS JUST AS ABSURD IF NOT MORE SO, than any theological concept); and if you’re thinking to yourself, “Hey, this guy’s just arguing Semantics,” I say “Hell yes!” </p>
<p>“Natural Selection” – how does Nature “select?” – This is a case of personifying Nature… which you might argue is the exact thing that most religious peoples are doing. “Natured programmed us…” – how does Nature “program?” –Again we have a personification and anthropomorphizing problem.</p>
<p>To put in terms such as the late, great Joseph Campbell might use, those spiritual and/or religious traditions or paths of the ancient “primitive” world, tribal societies, as well as the great religious traditions of the East have “god-concepts” which are more “Elemental, representing the POWERS WITHIN NATURE.” In these cases the “god” is a manifestation of the “energy” and “mystery” of Nature rather than being the generator of cosmic energy or the “architect” of the universe. </p>
<p>This concept works extremely well with the knowledge coming forward from the scientific communities. </p>
<p>In the end, it might very well sound like Pantheism, but that may in fact ultimately, in turn justify statements such as, “Natural Selection,” and “Nature programmed us with a moral sense.” </p>
<p>And you might ponder one of the questions I pose to my students of mythology; “If ‘god’ was the only thing which existed prior to the ‘creation’ of the universe, then what did ‘god’ create the universe out of?”</p>
<p>My final note, now that I have all of this out of the way, is that there’s yet another problem with the statement, “Nature programmed us with a moral sense,” which I’d prefer to write on at a later time. But until then; “If ‘Nature programmed with a moral sense,’ then 1) Why can’t we come to an universal agreement about morality itself? And 2) Why are there some who are simply not moral in any sense of the idea?</p>
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		<title>By: Kambiz</title>
		<link>http://primatology.net/2007/01/31/on-god-gorillas-and-the-evolution-of-religion/#comment-688</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kambiz]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Feb 2007 15:58:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://primatology.org/2007/01/31/on-god-gorillas-and-the-evolution-of-religion/#comment-688</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You know, skeptic griggsy, I avoided mentioning God at all except for the title of the book and post which refers to Dr. King&#039;s work. I actually focused more on showing the depth of character of some great apes, and you decided to take it another step further and spit out some intellectual mumbo-jumbo. 

I really don&#039;t see where, from my post, you are getting fodder for your argument. Your comment reads like a bad Nigerian email scam. And if you can&#039;t tell, it is thoroughly confusing, ignorant, and arrogant to just jump into a discussion with no background on where you&#039;re coming from. In the future, please give us some context, an introduction, something to help me grasp what about the post got you to think that way.

Kambiz]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, skeptic griggsy, I avoided mentioning God at all except for the title of the book and post which refers to Dr. King&#8217;s work. I actually focused more on showing the depth of character of some great apes, and you decided to take it another step further and spit out some intellectual mumbo-jumbo. </p>
<p>I really don&#8217;t see where, from my post, you are getting fodder for your argument. Your comment reads like a bad Nigerian email scam. And if you can&#8217;t tell, it is thoroughly confusing, ignorant, and arrogant to just jump into a discussion with no background on where you&#8217;re coming from. In the future, please give us some context, an introduction, something to help me grasp what about the post got you to think that way.</p>
<p>Kambiz</p>
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		<title>By: skeptic griggsy</title>
		<link>http://primatology.net/2007/01/31/on-god-gorillas-and-the-evolution-of-religion/#comment-686</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[skeptic griggsy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Feb 2007 12:39:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://primatology.org/2007/01/31/on-god-gorillas-and-the-evolution-of-religion/#comment-686</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nature, not God, programmed us with a moral sense. It would violate Occam&#039;s razor to put God behind nature. A two category classification of origins  [natural selection] or contingency and creation [teleology] or necessary being [Russell Stannard] begs the question as Kai Nielsen and Martin Diamond show in their books on philosophy of religion. Existence is the first cause, ultimate explanation, greatest and necessary being and through natural selection, the mindless force behind new life forms as Quentin Smith might state. One should not expect theologians to have any insight on the universe!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nature, not God, programmed us with a moral sense. It would violate Occam&#8217;s razor to put God behind nature. A two category classification of origins  [natural selection] or contingency and creation [teleology] or necessary being [Russell Stannard] begs the question as Kai Nielsen and Martin Diamond show in their books on philosophy of religion. Existence is the first cause, ultimate explanation, greatest and necessary being and through natural selection, the mindless force behind new life forms as Quentin Smith might state. One should not expect theologians to have any insight on the universe!</p>
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